Wednesday, November 24, 2010

When a raise out of turn sets off the alarms

Tonight, I was playing a little Minnesota Poker League bar poker, tuning up for the WPBT gathering in Vegas. I was in a hand tonight that I thought I would share to see what you think.

Blinds are 200/400. I have 3800 in chips and am sitting in the cutoff. When I looked down, I found 99, not a completely crappy hand at all. I figure if it folds to me, I raise it up to 1200ish.

When the action folded to me, the player on my left shoves for a 1000. Now, it wasn't a huge shove, just 2.5 big blinds, but the big stack on the button, moves like he wants to insta-call but suddenly realizes that I haven't acted yet.

I sat there for a little bit and thought this through. Everyone at the table was going to let me act first, but my plan to raise just doesn't sound like a good plan any more. With 600 chips in the pot from the blinds, this shove of 1000 after me, a 1200 chip raise is out of the question. Why don't I just beg everyone to call? I'm positive the button was going to  put chips in the middle as soon as it was his turn. He's definitely strong. I got the feeling the blinds new this too.

I figured it was either shove or fold and wait for a better spot.

I'm not a huge fan of nines. They are pretty and all, but a coin flip at best to almost all of the hands that the big blind would act so strong with. What to do, what to do...

I folded having committed not a single chip in the middle.

The player to my left turns over K6h (WTF? Couldn't wait to shove this????) and the button turns of pocket tens.

Whew! Dodge a bullet there! Of course, the flop contains a 9 and the set would have held, but since I didn't know that preflop, I think I made the right decision.

What do you think?


Zeem said...

I think I reshove 99 here. 2.5 blinds is shoving very loose in that spot, and you have no read on players behind you. You are way ahead of his range and you need the chips.

Heffmike said...

1) this is only an open raise if you snapcall off to a shove like every single time. Otherwise, just jam.
2) just jam anyway.
3) big stacks in position will peel with a lot of crap to spike - his coldcall is meaningless
4) people fold a lot in live bar poker when you shove - TOURNAMENT LIFE!
5) it's bar poker, you don't have time to get a better spot.
6) did I mention jam? :-)

NumbBono said...

Without knowing the people left/payouts...blah blah blah...I say fold. At best, you're racing here against the big stack, but with a decent chance he's ahead of you already. As short as your stack is against the blinds, I say wait and take a chance with ATC (two face) in the next orbit instead. Especially given your read of the big stacks movements.

Jamming is the only other option though, and although it would have paid off, I think (once again, without knowing more about the situation) you're better off waiting.

KenP said...

Blinds make fools of us all.

I don't think K6s is a WTF moment. I'd say it more WTF did you wait until you M was so low.

The guy cutting chips seems the gotcha. Your M of 6 and change has you in the same shape Mr K6 was a short time back. You need to make something happen. If you think you've any read on the guy waiting, you either fold or push. The idea is that old saw about it being harder to call with medium strength than it is to raise.

You are very close to having to play any two like the K6 guy. Now if the guy to the left is the table captain type, you might be able to find a better spot.

Yeah, Z & H are right in their view but don't take it as cut and dried as they are making it. We don't really know the guy on your left.

I have a recurring memory that goes back a number of years. The guy on my right raised every blind of mine and I took it and slowly dropped to the point where when I got a good hand and pushed back he could call and did and was dominated and he won. I think you can see why that memory sticks. That's what Z & H are saying to avoid.

matt tag said...

K6 is a fine hand to push with 2.5 BB. You are also in dangerous territory with 10BB left.

Your original plan (before K6 acted out of turn) was going to raise 3 out of your 9 blinds. What if the TT guy came over the top after you? (remember, you don't know if he had TT). Do you fold? If so, you just lost 1/3 of your stack - a disaster in tourneys.

I recommend buying Harrington's 3 tourney books, which very clearly outline the "tournament clock" and how play has to change as your stack decreases (relative to the blinds)

Memphis MOJO said...

Harrington says when you shove, to do it when no one else has entered the betting. Here, you have a shove and someone else who looks to be interested. I'd fold and wait for a better spot. Shoving with just about anything is a better spot (assuming no one else has entered the betting).

You had information and made good use of it, imo.

Fred aka TwoBlackAces said...

I would be looking for any playable hand with decent equity to double up. 99 is good enough.

So, without the antics, I'm shoving. You have 10 bets, and that's good enough to open shove...never just raise.

Knowing the antics, I'm still shoving. The K6 dude is really playing ATC, and I'll take a race against the Big stack, and hope I'm not dominated.

Maintain agression, and sometimes good things happen.